VGA vs RGB

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mazonemayu
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Re: VGA vs RGB

Post#21 » Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:56 pm

Ian Micheal wrote:I make emulator upgrades using the dc normal emulator on any machine cant do I'm a mad lad

Spectrum with cdda gameboy music no pc or xbox emulator can do this lol
https://streamable.com/aarql3
Bleemcast was always my inspire to enhance not make the same..


That’s actually pretty cool
I was never much of a programmer myself, I can read and analize code up to a certain point and have hacked and modded stuff like menu’s together for my own use, but I can’t write stuff from scratch :lol:
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Gabbyjay
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Re: VGA vs RGB

Post#22 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:29 am

Ian Micheal wrote:it's the best way on dreamcast due to the hardware why we have 8mb of vram to do double buffer 480p ..
It's how it was made and the gpu .. Rgb i get for 2d fighting games ..

No picture rgb vs vga that's better on dreamcast when it's 3D if you want we can go picture capture for capture lol..

We can use soul reaver :) easy to see rgb is lot worst then vga on that game..Main thing i even do dev for this machine is 480p vga if it was only rgb i would of moved on..

TBH it's the main and only why i like Dreamcast at all..

Whats this using vga is small screen thing you could get big monitor vga crt bigger then most tv crt's at the time with better refresh rate..
NEC had the best much better then any tv crt dot per inch as well..
Not all crt's are = the same.. ANd not consumer tv's are no where near that proper vga montior..
I dont want low pixel blured rubbish smeared all of the screen..
But that's me i like sharp with out smearing .. No rgb or anything is that sharp..

Whats this DC had no filtering or AAA seen bleemcast retail ?



If you use an RGB cable, the few 240p games that are available will look great, but all other games will only output in 480i.

Why would i want 480i..
If i wanted crap 480I i would moved to the ps2 lmao..



Well back then (starting in the year 1998), it would have been next to impossible to find a CRT-monitor anything larger then 21" in diameter, so screen size was a valid argument back then, as it was easy to find a much larger TV - and WAY less expensive. :)

But even ignoring this, I mostly still preferred RGB, even if it was 480i.
Mostly since the DC-games used no Anti-Aliasing (aside from the 3 or so doing 2x horizontal SSAA). That would have solved a lot of the problems...

Well... I think I mentioned I used one of those 100Hz-TVs... perhaps that was easy to overlook. On such a TV, the interlace-flickering was almost not visible as the frequency was doubled. Also, the Dreamcast deflickering was quite effective (even if you lost sharpness). The 640x480 framebuffer of the DC helped even on 480p of course, as it made the deflickering possible.
On a 50/60Hz-TV, the interlace-flicker may have been more pronounced, not sure if I could stand that.

But there was another problem when playing on a CRT-monitor via VGA: The image switched to 60Hz (even if the monitor supported higher frequencies), as that was the signal input. At least it was the case with my monitor, but I'm pretty sure that it was like that for all of them. So when you were accustomed to higher frequencies, for me the 60Hz-flickering was almost unbearable.

When using comparison-videos like this, keep in mind that most of us will watch it on a modern monitor (or mobile), where all the advantages the CRT-TV-tube had are gone. 480p wins hands down when displayed on a modern monitor, no doubt.
But was the vertical blur on the textures in 480i really that pronounced? Wow. I don't remember it being THAT bad.

But even on a modern monitor, the 480i has some advantages, as the vertical blur hides a lot of the jaggies (and it looks more natural on the left):

https://ibb.co/njk9vPW
Last edited by Gabbyjay on Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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mazonemayu
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Re: VGA vs RGB

Post#23 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:55 am

Gabbyjay wrote:But was the vertical blur on the textures in 480i really that pronounced? Wow. I don't remember it being THAT bad.



It really isn’t that bad overall :lol: I popped in Soulreaver and it still looks great for what it is. The problem with the vid is that is makes an unfair comparison. And by that I mean it takes 2 analog signals and shows em through a digital output so the difference is accentuated, compared to what you’d get if you would do this test on a crt monitor and a crt tv, the difference would be less noticabel. The vid is good to help folks if you want to upscale and play on a modern tv though, but comparing it to the what a crt outputs is a bit unfair imho as it is a completely different device. I could do a vid showing a DC 3D game on a crt tv via rgb is you want to see it, I have the equipment at home since I only film gameplay from crt nowadays.

Here’s one I did for the Saturn a while back, and it still looks great, even taking into consideration that this is 3D from an earlier generation

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Re: VGA vs RGB

Post#24 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:16 am

mazonemayu wrote:
Gabbyjay wrote:But was the vertical blur on the textures in 480i really that pronounced? Wow. I don't remember it being THAT bad.



It really isn’t that bad overall :lol: I popped in Soulreaver and it still looks great for what it is. The problem with the vid is that is makes an unfair comparison. And by that I mean it takes 2 analog signals and shows em through a digital output so the difference is accentuated, compared to what you’d get if you would do this test on a crt monitor and a crt tv, the difference would be less noticabel. The vid is good to help folks if you want to upscale and play on a modern tv though, but comparing it to the what a crt outputs is a bit unfair imho as it is a completely different device. I could do a vid showing a DC 3D game on a crt tv via rgb is you want to see it, I have the equipment at home since I only film gameplay from crt nowadays.

Here’s one I did for the Saturn a while back, and it still looks great, even taking into consideration that this is 3D from an earlier generation



Grandia. : D
I had this game on the Saturn, and the US-version for the PS. The Saturn-version looked better (due to the use of rotating/scaling 2D-floors instead of relying on polygons as the PS did for this)... but I could only read a bit of Japanese (only had it for 2 semesters), so I did not know what was going no on the saturn. : D

Speaking of the Saturn - sometimes the less sharp image of composite or S-Video with it's color-bleeding may be preferable to RGB on the Saturn to somewhat lessen the fly-screen-effect of the faked transparencies (similar to some effects on the Mega Drive).

Well about the comparison-video for the Dreamcast from above, to be fair, the vertical blurring WAS present even on a CRT. But I don't recall it that pronounced as it is in that video. Maybe it's just my memory or something went a bit wrong here, so I would be glad if you did some comparison shots.

I posted a screenshot from another video (the Sonic Adventure Pic right in the end of my last posting), where you can see the pros and cons of both 480i and 480p as I remembered it: https://ibb.co/njk9vPW
480i is less sharp and with sawtooth-artifacts, but more natural looking and far less aliasing.


Metropolis Street Racer and Shenmue IMO are the two games with the worst Aliasing I have seen on the Dreamcast.
In both games, using RGB on a CRT might really help. ;)

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Re: VGA vs RGB

Post#25 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:48 am

Sure,I’ll do a small vid of something DC 3D after the weekend (I’m at work atm), can only put up an RGB vid as I don’t own a PC CRT anymore, but you’ll see that it isn’t all that bad, in fact RGB on a CRT looks way better than on a modern tv (which is pure eye torture)
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Re: VGA vs RGB

Post#26 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:08 am

Blur was that bad in australia on pal on 480i on consumer tv yes it was much much worst on a ps2 pal at the time.. any thing 480i on pal is shocking..

Sorry i cant see defending 480i on console or watching a movie on it .. It's blurry and created lines .. This looked bad on crt and looks even worst on a modern monitor as now you can see even more how crap it is..

I dont want blur hiding things i can see the blur lol it's worst then jaggies for me is the dam blur in the first place lol..

That's one of things i could not stand on the ps2 blur blur every where.. flicker..

Really was that bad..
Last edited by Ian Micheal on Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VGA vs RGB

Post#27 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:21 am

Ian Micheal wrote:Blur was that bad in australia on pal on 480i on consumer tv yes it was much much worst on a ps2 pal at the time.. any thing 480i on pal is shocking..

Sorry i cant see defending 480i on console or watching a movie on it .. It's blurry and created lines .. This looked bad on crt and looks even worst on a modern monitor as now you can see even more how crap it is..


So you didn’t play consoles before the DC came along then? :lol:
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Re: VGA vs RGB

Post#28 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:22 am

mazonemayu wrote:
Ian Micheal wrote:Blur was that bad in australia on pal on 480i on consumer tv yes it was much much worst on a ps2 pal at the time.. any thing 480i on pal is shocking..

Sorry i cant see defending 480i on console or watching a movie on it .. It's blurry and created lines .. This looked bad on crt and looks even worst on a modern monitor as now you can see even more how crap it is..


So you didn’t play consoles before the DC came along then? :lol:


No i really did not i was on old computers like the c64 and amiga where i learned to hate the flicker lol..

Also one of the things i first upgrade on every emulator i work on is to force 480p 640x480 on Dreamcast hehe..
Because i can take what every crap res it has and force to 480p vga any system of the past and fix that problem..

Gabbyjay
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Re: VGA vs RGB

Post#29 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:30 am

Ian Micheal wrote:I dont want blur hiding things


Actually, it's not only blur, but 1:2 downsampling, so you get MORE details then 480i without it, but less details compared to 480p of course. ;)

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Re: VGA vs RGB

Post#30 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:39 am

Ian Micheal wrote:
mazonemayu wrote:
Ian Micheal wrote:Blur was that bad in australia on pal on 480i on consumer tv yes it was much much worst on a ps2 pal at the time.. any thing 480i on pal is shocking..

Sorry i cant see defending 480i on console or watching a movie on it .. It's blurry and created lines .. This looked bad on crt and looks even worst on a modern monitor as now you can see even more how crap it is..


So you didn’t play consoles before the DC came along then? :lol:


No i really did not i was on old computers like the c64 and amiga where i learned to hate the flicker lol..

Also one of the things i first upgrade on every emulator i work on is to force 480p 640x480 on Dreamcast hehe..
Because i can take what every crap res it has and force to 480p vga any system of the past and fix that problem..


Well, you have a problem that no normal human has, and have found a solution to is, it doesn’t get more subjective than that LoL

Hell, I spend most of my free time in a completely darkened room, folks think I’m insane too, but it works for me. I have tourette and when shrouded in darkness there’s less stimuli from outside which puts my mind at rest (to a certain degree), I wouldn’t expect others to understand my weird shit either :mrgreen:
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