Generic Sega Console thread... sort of

[CruSega]

Honestly, If Sega actually DID make a new console, I think they would easily win over Japan.

Sure Sega has the reputation of a dog turd here, But in Japan they're still kickin' it with their arcade games (aka border break), and many of their franchises(Yakuza, Phantasy Star, etc.), which are much more popular there than anywhere else.

Not to mention the crappy state of the Xbox in that country, which they took off store shelves. With that in mind, unless Microsoft does some serious re-branding, There's probably room for another competitor.

And If I'm not mistaken, Sega also have their parent company, SegaSammy, backing Sega up with funds and support if needed. In my opinion, I think they have enough to support, and manufacture a hypothetical console, at least in Japan.

If Sega ever decides to return to the console hardware business, we'll probably need some major convincing. But besides some brand changes, Japan Shouldn't be a problem to convince.

By the way, Technically speaking, Sega still produces Arcade Hardware, So they never technically completely abandoned Video game Hardware. In theory, they could probably re-engineer their arcade hardware to create this hypothetical "console". TSSZ reported about a potential arcade hardware announcment next year, so who knows!

Sega has always dominated Japanese arcades but except for Saturn, they have failed in the Japanese console market. In fact, if Sega wasn't so hard up on conquering the Jap market via the VF craze in 1993, it may have prevented the console's failure in the West as Sega would have gone back to the drawing boards and used one SH3 processor instead of slapping on another SH2 on a tight design schedule and pushed back release to late 1996.

To succeed in Japan they'd have to have Square's support or make a game as big as Final Fantasy. Dreamcast is proof that the Japanese love is not too strong. And Sonic has never been very popular over there either.

As for the US market, they need to keep making quality titles and stop publishing crappy movie ports. They'd also need to pretty much give EA free reins to make games on their console. No Madden means fail!

[MrSega]

@CruSega. SEGA's consoles in Japan except Saturn(which was a huge success) were always modest success. Dreamcast remains the only commerical failure in Japan that SEGA made. SG-1000 enjoyed a 7 year run in the 8-bit market, and with SEGA successfully able to break into overseas markets excluding the West, Master System enjoyed a long life.

Mega Drive was not a failure. SEGA supported it for almost 8 years. In fact it started off modestly well in late 1988 playing second fiddle to NEC PC Engine, things finally picked up when SEGA introduced MEGA CD and Sonic in 1991. Sonic CD remains the only Sonic title that was a blockbuster in Japan. Other than that, Sonic games always do well in Japan.

Pretty much every SEGA arcade board has had tremendous success except 1993's Model 1. This was going to be Aurora/Saturn's chipset. The board was poorly recieved at JAMMA 1993, SEGA was so mortified by its umimpressive rollout, that they quickly switched chipsets for SATURN to a design simlaur to Model 2. Both Model's 1 and 2 used Hitachi SH2 as you know, Model 3 had a mid range SH3 proccessor, but what you probably didn't know is that Model 3 was only a shortlived mid range board like RINGEDGE.

Anyway, Model 1 was such a flop, it was retired in less than a year. SEGA even had titles in development for it, switched over to Model 2!


As for EA, did you know that last month, they gave SEGA the publishing and licensing rights to thier IPs for distribution in Japan? So EA and SEGA do have better relations. Its true!

[CruSega]

@CruSega. SEGA's consoles in Japan except Saturn(which was a huge success) were always modest success. Dreamcast remains the only commerical failure in Japan that SEGA made. SG-1000 enjoyed a 7 year run in the 8-bit market, and with SEGA successfully able to break into overseas markets excluding the West, Master System enjoyed a long life.

Mega Drive was not a failure. SEGA supported it for almost 8 years. In fact it started off modestly well in late 1988 playing second fiddle to NEC PC Engine, things finally picked up when SEGA introduced MEGA CD and Sonic in 1991. Sonic CD remains the only Sonic title that was a blockbuster in Japan. Other than that, Sonic games always do well in Japan.

Pretty much every SEGA arcade board has had tremendous success except 1993's Model 1. This was going to be Aurora/Saturn's chipset. The board was poorly recieved at JAMMA 1993, SEGA was so mortified by its umimpressive rollout, that they quickly switched chipsets for SATURN to a design simlaur to Model 2. Both Model's 1 and 2 used Hitachi SH2 as you know, Model 3 had a mid range SH3 proccessor, but what you probably didn't know is that Model 3 was only a shortlived mid range board like RINGEDGE.

Anyway, Model 1 was such a flop, it was retired in less than a year. SEGA even had titles in development for it, switched over to Model 2!


As for EA, did you know that last month, they gave SEGA the publishing and licensing rights to thier IPs for distribution in Japan? So EA and SEGA do have better relations. Its true!

I don't know what you consider successful but when I flip through my EGM magazines from the 90s, every single game in the Japanese imports section was for the SNES. Nintendo dominated Japan with the SNES.

If not for America and Europe, the Megadrive/Genny would have joined the Turbographx 16 by 1992.

Back to Japan, the only killer app Sega ever had there was the Virtua Fighter series and it was huge there. Thinking there was finally an opportunity to penetrate their own country, Sega rushed the Saturn (which was supposed to be a hybrid of Model 1 and System 32. It only became the architectural mess when Sega got word of the PS1's incredible 3D capabilities and the SOJ design team were given a limited window to make it more beefy. It was beefy but impossible to program for. Saturn VF1 was terrible (what with clipping and parts of fighters disappearing) and Daytona USA chugged along at 12-15 fps.

As for Model 3, I'm pretty sure it used a Power PC processor cause if it used an SH3, DC versions of VF3 would have been flawless and to top things off there was nothing in the DC library that matched what AM2 achieved with Scud Racer. I know Sega had a DC Scud Racer demo that they showed developers behind closed doors but if it was half-decent why didn't they release it for the DC?

Model 3 was shortlived because Sega decided to go with the Naomi and STV designs which were cheaper to produce but based on the games, Model 3 was more powerful than DC or its arcade derivatives.

Check this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Se ... ifications

Regardless, if Japan was truly behind Sega, the DC could have survived and Sega wouldn't have had to go become a 3rd party publisher. Not even Shenmue could save DC in Japan and Sega banked on that game bigtime.

[MrSega]

@CruSega. You are correct that Super Famicom was the top selling console in Japan for several years, but MD and Mega CD did well enough to keep SEGA afloat in Japan.

The "SEGA changed Saturn's chipset because of PSX" is a well known myth. SEGA made the switch to Model 2 and a run-of-the-mill Model 2 design in late 1993. As of Spring 1993, Sony was still under contract to design a Super NES/Super Famicom CD add on for Nintendo. Sony did not patent the PSX for a console CD ROM hybrid design until December 1993. And spend most of 1994 hurridly designing and finalizing the console. SEGA and Nintendo were not aware of PSX being a console until 1994. The original design of Saturn would have still been slightly more powerful than PSX, PSone was capable of only 398,000 polygons per second, Model 1 was capable of 500,000, the design SEGA choose, utilized sprite RAM,scalling rotation, up to 4 MBs of memory for arcade perfect ports, and 2 3D engines running 500,000 PPS each, with both engines, Saturn was 2X more powerful than PSone.

Model 3 used Intel dual 64-bit Pentium. And used SH3 for graphics.

Dreamcast failed in Japan because of one thing: Illl advised rollout. When the system launched in November 1998, development had just been completed meaning developers still needed 4 months to finish thier titles. SEGA always rolls out a console on
production lines 4 months before it launches. DC wasn't ready for retail. SEGA made a brainless poor marketing move rushing out 4 months early, DC was suppossed to launch in Japan on February 5,1999 "Dreamcast No Kinyobi" DC Friday. Japanese developers soon abandoned SEGA and Japanese gamers snubbed DC for being an insult to them. In fact Sonic Adventure was ridded with horrible bugs and glitches.

[MrSega]

CruSega, its funny that you mentioned the polygon problems the Model 1 early builds had because these were the same type of problems that ended up plaguing alot of Playstation games. The reason why is simple: Model 1 like PSX used a basic 3D engine called "Trilateral". This engine runs on low frame rate and low memory to execute a better polygonal effect. Japanese consumers at JAMMA in '93 told SEGA this. So SEGA saw that the Model 2 design which uses higher RAM and higher framerates through "Quadlateral" polygons was more efficiant.

SEGA's 32-bit CPU line is very complex and interesting. They actually designed several hybrids from System 32,Model 1 and 2.

First in 1992 they designed and quickly scrapped a cartridge based System 32 2D only hybrid called "GigaDrive". What was left of this made its way to Sega of America via unauthorized SegaSonic Arcade exports who designed "MARS" from it a.k.a the abominable Sega 32X.

From SEGA of Japan's next gen 3D project "Aurora" they designed two chipsets: a Model 1 based cartridge design "Jupiter" and a CD ROM based modified Model 2 based powerhouse "Saturn".

Saturn itself was a complex machine, SEGA did not teach developers how to utilize its power, and SEGA didn't realize that CD ROM was not efficiant enough to hold enough space capacity to make it easy to program. Had Saturn used Video CD, CDROM HC or Super VCD, it would have been easier to code.

Model 2 and Saturn only differ in design and memory. Model 2 is state of the art. And can push up to 900,000 PPS, it uses full capacity in internal RAM and memory. Saturn of course uses 2 processors running on enhanced Model 1 upgraded Qaudlateral 3D engines, with backup, its perfectly capable of running arcade perfect Model 2 games.

[MistaBuck]

@CruSega You're right. Everything you say is actually similar to MY ideas.

It looks like great minds still think alike :3

[CruSega]

@CruSega. You are correct that Super Famicom was the top selling console in Japan for several years, but MD and Mega CD did well enough to keep SEGA afloat in Japan.

The "SEGA changed Saturn's chipset because of PSX" is a well known myth. SEGA made the switch to Model 2 and a run-of-the-mill Model 2 design in late 1993. As of Spring 1993, Sony was still under contract to design a Super NES/Super Famicom CD add on for Nintendo. Sony did not patent the PSX for a console CD ROM hybrid design until December 1993. And spend most of 1994 hurridly designing and finalizing the console. SEGA and Nintendo were not aware of PSX being a console until 1994. The original design of Saturn would have still been slightly more powerful than PSX, PSone was capable of only 398,000 polygons per second, Model 1 was capable of 500,000, the design SEGA choose, utilized sprite RAM,scalling rotation, up to 4 MBs of memory for arcade perfect ports, and 2 3D engines running 500,000 PPS each, with both engines, Saturn was 2X more powerful than PSone.

Model 3 used Intel dual 64-bit Pentium. And used SH3 for graphics.

Dreamcast failed in Japan because of one thing: Illl advised rollout. When the system launched in November 1998, development had just been completed meaning developers still needed 4 months to finish thier titles. SEGA always rolls out a console on
production lines 4 months before it launches. DC wasn't ready for retail. SEGA made a brainless poor marketing move rushing out 4 months early, DC was suppossed to launch in Japan on February 5,1999 "Dreamcast No Kinyobi" DC Friday. Japanese developers soon abandoned SEGA and Japanese gamers snubbed DC for being an insult to them. In fact Sonic Adventure was ridded with horrible bugs and glitches.

Saturn may have been more powerful in theory, but I never saw a game that was remotely close to 2 x's more impressive than PS1 and I still play both systems via SSF and ePSXe emulators. Even Yu Suzuki said only about 1 percent of programmers at the time could take advantage of both SH2 processors in Next Generation magazine. There was not a single Saturn or even Model 2 game that displayed transparencies for effects like engine smoke, dust from the ground, etc. Just compare Saturn and PS1 versions of Destruction Derby or Toshinden to see my point. The windows of the cars in Saturn racing games were often just a mesh which looked awful, such as Jaleco's Super GT 24. The Model 2 version (I have an emulator for that too ) blows the Saturn one out of the water. And was there ever a Saturn game with real time lighting?

To me, it shows that Saturn lacked some key hardware during the 32 bit era. It was a 2D powerhouse though and Capcom fighters were flawless on Saturn.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Saturn-warts and all. And PS1 had weird texture shifting which shows it wasn't perfect. AM2 still made terrific ports of VF2, Sega Rally Championship, Manx TT, Fighting Vipers and Die Hard Arcade. Team Andromeda did wonders with the Panzer Dragoon series. Naka made NiGHTS and Burning Rangers although I was more impressed with STI's Sonic X-Treme demos. Saturn Shenmue looked "promising" too.

As for the "myth", every major publication and website has claimed Sega redesigned the Saturn after seeing what PS1 could perform. You're the first person I've ever met to claim otherwise. If Saturn could hold its own against PS1, I see no need for its suicidal stealth launch in the spring of 1995.

[CruSega]

@CruSega You're right. Everything you say is actually similar to MY ideas.

It looks like great minds still think alike :3

I just want to keep realistic. We all want a new Sega console but expectations of Sega owning the Japan market in a half-year don't seem plausible to me. Even with a perfect launch and great library, the DC still failed. So I think Sega would need something revolutionary to get back into the console wars.

[stu]

I don't know what you consider successful but when I flip through my EGM magazines from the 90s, every single game in the Japanese imports section was for the SNES. Nintendo dominated Japan with the SNES.

If not for America and Europe, the Megadrive/Genny would have joined the Turbographx 16 by 1992.

Back to Japan, the only killer app Sega ever had there was the Virtua Fighter series and it was huge there. Thinking there was finally an opportunity to penetrate their own country, Sega rushed the Saturn (which was supposed to be a hybrid of Model 1 and System 32. It only became the architectural mess when Sega got word of the PS1's incredible 3D capabilities and the SOJ design team were given a limited window to make it more beefy. It was beefy but impossible to program for. Saturn VF1 was terrible (what with clipping and parts of fighters disappearing) and Daytona USA chugged along at 12-15 fps.

As for Model 3, I'm pretty sure it used a Power PC processor cause if it used an SH3, DC versions of VF3 would have been flawless and to top things off there was nothing in the DC library that matched what AM2 achieved with Scud Racer. I know Sega had a DC Scud Racer demo that they showed developers behind closed doors but if it was half-decent why didn't they release it for the DC?

Model 3 was shortlived because Sega decided to go with the Naomi and STV designs which were cheaper to produce but based on the games, Model 3 was more powerful than DC or its arcade derivatives.

Check this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Se ... ifications

Regardless, if Japan was truly behind Sega, the DC could have survived and Sega wouldn't have had to go become a 3rd party publisher. Not even Shenmue could save DC in Japan and Sega banked on that game bigtime.

That is pretty much the way I remember it also. In 1994 the Virtua Fighter games were HUGE in Japan and everyone was clamoring for a home conversion, it was the conversion of Virtua Fighter 2 that helped give the Saturn the early lead in Japan over the PS1, only once the Final Fantasy games started coming out on the PS1 did things change.

As for the Model 3 arcade board it used a PowerPC 603 CPU running at 66Mhz and had 2 Real3D Pro-1000 graphics chips, it was indeed more powerful than the Naomi boards, but was also a very expensive board compared to Naomi, hence its short life.

Here's the specs for Model 3

http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=717

[CruSega]

@CruSega. SEGA's consoles in Japan except Saturn(which was a huge success) were always modest success. Dreamcast remains the only commerical failure in Japan that SEGA made. SG-1000 enjoyed a 7 year run in the 8-bit market, and with SEGA successfully able to break into overseas markets excluding the West, Master System enjoyed a long life.

The SMS was very popular in Europe, outselling the NES. So if anything, it was Europe that kept the SMS alive more than Japan.

Mega Drive was not a failure. SEGA supported it for almost 8 years. In fact it started off modestly well in late 1988 playing second fiddle to NEC PC Engine, things finally picked up when SEGA introduced MEGA CD and Sonic in 1991. Sonic CD remains the only Sonic title that was a blockbuster in Japan. Other than that, Sonic games always do well in Japan.

Huh?