New 3D Racing 4x4 Jam For Sega Dreamcast

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mazonemayu
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Re: New 3D Racing 4x4 Jam For Sega Dreamcast

Post#21 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:31 pm

I totally agree, the price is wat too high for ports, soon we'll be paying €40 per old arcade game on a disk...I don't like where this is going
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Caspian
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Re: New 3D Racing 4x4 Jam For Sega Dreamcast

Post#22 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:04 am

Quite impressive. To see at last a new 3D game on the Dreamcast is awesome. Given the fact that the latest Kickstarter campaign for "The Line of Fire" went horribly bad, ports from already implemented games is probably the only chance to see the kind of titles that Dreamcast was really meant to support: 3D.

In addition, the fact that we do not know what the amount of effort and cost that was put into the Dreamcast version should be taken into account before focusing on critisicm on the cost rather than the quality of the game.

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Re: New 3D Racing 4x4 Jam For Sega Dreamcast

Post#23 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:39 am

I disagree. I think cost should be a criticism. Of course effort and cost are a factor, but it borders on collector exploitation at this point.

'4x4 Jam' is currently free with in-app purchases on Android, and it's only an okay game. 'Ganryu' is an expensive cart, but if we're talking quality, which we were (maybe you didn't fully read my previous post), is not a very good game. 'Breakers' is not a good fighter.

'Flashback,' as I stated, is a good game with improvements on Dreamcast to make it (arguably) the best version of that game. But the PC game and 16-bit carts are only around $10, and the remastered version is coming Switch, which I bet is at the very least the same as the DC version and most likely cheaper (obviously there's a premium for a physical version).

In regards to 'In the Line of Fire,' that was a wholly original Dreamcast game and not a port. The Kickstarter was unsuccessful not because of the game itself, but how the Kickstarter was launched and ran (very, very little info unless you were already aware of the project prior to the Kickstarter). Also, don't forget about 'Xenocider.' That game is a fully 3D polygonal, original game for the Dreamcast that as of now isn't coming out on any other platform.

And again, as I said in my previous post, these lesser quality releases may very well be a stepping stone for JoshProd to establish itself as the go-to company for publishing physical DC games in order to get bigger name games ported to the DC (or have newer games release on DC alongside current platforms), and that would be fine. Limited Run Games did the same publishing strategy. The difference between JoshProd and LRG is that LRG has consistently published critical well received games (both by critics and gamers), and they sell them for only $10 over original download price to cover physical manufacturing costs. The latter obviously doesn't apply in the same way for Dreamcast games, but the choice of game quality should.

But so far it hasn't. And despite Dreamcast collectors, myself including, being used to paying a premium for newly released DC games, I think I speak for many when I say it's going a little too far and we aren't going to take those high prices for lower quality games for much longer.

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Caspian
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Re: New 3D Racing 4x4 Jam For Sega Dreamcast

Post#24 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:27 pm

Both Flashback and Ganryu are 2D (I think). In my opinion it's a joke comparing the effort needed to present a new 2D game to the Dreamcast compared to a 3D one. In addition I think that since the Dreamcast was primarily focused to handle 3D games, it is a much bigger deal when we see a new 3D game. Personally I'm sick and tired of "new" 2D scrollers. Speaking for myself, I did not buy a Dreamcast to play 2D-scrollers, I would rather replay one of my old games. But when it comes down to making 3D business on the Dreamcast, one will end up where "The Line of Fire" ended up, not because of promotional mistakes but simply because the interest for new Dreamcast games is too low to cover the cost. Those things alone should be enough to ease up on the critisism.

I haven't played 4x4 Jam, so I will assume that your assessment for the game's quality is accurate. Should we buy a game that we consider as overpriced, especially when the company's record is not improving? No. But we do not have to complain too much about it either. Every company that is working to make a profit, will implement something for the Dreamcast that will be sold with a (big) premium because they know that not too many people will buy it but those few who will, do not mind about it. When it comes to 3D games, we will have to put up with this kind of business logic until someone makes a quality game for the Dreamcast (ported or exclusive) that will create a sufficient amount of profit that will make the rest of the developers reconsider the kind of business logic that results in mediocre overpriced games that are addressed only to "will-buy-anything-with-a-Dreamcast-swirl" people. There was an opportunity with "The Line of Fire" which miserably failed and the problem is that the Dreamcast community will not get too many of these opportunities.

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Re: New 3D Racing 4x4 Jam For Sega Dreamcast

Post#25 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:11 am

I wasn't comparing the efforts of a 2D game to a 3D game. I was talking about overall game quality. Again, it seems you either didn't read and/or fully understand my post.

You're missing my point though: it's exploitation. They're releasing these games solely because they know people will pay a premium for them. Not because the games warrant it and not because they necessarily think the Dreamcast should have new (newer, because these JoshProd releases are not new by any stretch) games.

I had the same complaint with Hucast, and you can read my write-up about it on SEGAbits. Hucast kept releasing the same game, as a remake, as a sequel, as new jewel case/collectors/special/.5 editions, because people bought them. Not because the game or the Dreamcast warranted it. And that spread into their last DC release when they blatantly lied about the game and what was included. But they knew Dreamcast owners would buy the games, so they didn't really care.

And your point about "In the Line of Fire" only endorses my point further, in that, maybe these games aren't really wanted by DC collectors/gamers, and they know that, so that's why the price is higher for "4x4 Jam" and the Visco games. They will make their money, and that's their only goal.

But then again, the desire is there as proven by games like "Xenocider," as I've mentioned. So yeah, "In the Line of Fire" did drop the ball.

However, if you don't fully grasp my argument of game quality tied to exploitation, I don't know how else to explain it and I'm through trying.

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Caspian
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Re: New 3D Racing 4x4 Jam For Sega Dreamcast

Post#26 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:32 am

I have answered to each and every one of the points you are trying to make, I'll go for another run.

To begin with, I think that somehow you are missing your own point. You are talking about "collector-exploitation" and you are giving "quality" 2D examples to support it. Setting aside the fact that the way you factor-in the "quality vs. cost" the additional effort required for a 3D game is questionable, when it comes to "collector-exploitation" the majority of the "new" 2D games released go right into this category when it comes to the Dreamcast. Why? Because the vast majority of the Dreamcast owners got their Dreamcasts to play 3D games. Releasing 2D games on the Dreamcast in 2017 is being done because it's feasible with limited resources which in turn will result in profit made from the small Dreamcast community that is willing to pay 10-30$ for a game they wouldn't play even if it was for free back in 2000. However they will buy them now and maybe even force themselves to play them because they are attached to their Dreamcasts. "Collector-exploitation" right there. That being said, there is a handfull of innovative 2D games that have new things to offer in the 3D age however with Dreamcast releases this is not the case.

Then you keep mentioning Xenocider to further support your point with a 3D example. If Xenocider's web site is visited, one of the first things someone can read is "... we agreed to focus our efforts on developing Xenocider for Dreamcast exclusively. This may well reduce our potential profit to almost none, but who cares.". So... Xenocider makes no economic sense for a company, but somehow "The Line of Fire" failed because of... a bad campaign (later you state that "these games aren't really wanted", which one is it?). Bottom line is that going 3D on the Dreamcast makes no economic sense, unless the game is ported (and has already covered the bulk of its cost) from another platform. And from a personal point of view, a new Dreamcast 3D game, albeit mediocre, is more worth its money than almost any 2D game since, "I think I speak for many when I say that", someone bacame a Dreamcast owner to play 3D games, not 2D ones. And even if someone disagrees, it is still good news that a company still takes Dreamcast into account and still bothers to probe the market. A certain level of criticism is understandable, but when it reaches the level of negativity it is not, given the circumstances.

FInally, you keep repeating that I do not grasp what you say but this won't make your argument stronger, it will just make it personal.

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mazonemayu
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Re: New 3D Racing 4x4 Jam For Sega Dreamcast

Post#27 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:35 am

Wth are you talking about Caspian, there's a lot of folks out there who got into the DC especially for the 2D fighters & shooters...
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Re: New 3D Racing 4x4 Jam For Sega Dreamcast

Post#28 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:48 am

We can make a point based either on the rule or on the exceptions. From any list of containing the best-selling Dreamcast games, no 2D game is present. None. This is proof enough on what were the video-gaming intentions of the big majority of the Dreamcast owners.

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mazonemayu
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Re: New 3D Racing 4x4 Jam For Sega Dreamcast

Post#29 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:03 pm

Sales mean nothing, since we're talking about a period of nearly 20 years here, which contains a rise and fall, what sales list would be accurate...launch day...clear out when the PS2 arrived...sales from 2003 up to 2010, when the diehard fans were still doing what they do best...sales from the last 3 years, from around the time when retro was becoming hip and everyone wanted to make a quick buck??? The only list that gives us a realistic idea about how it actually works, is a list put together by us, the user base: actual people who buy & play actual games, like the one over at the DC Junkyard...which contains...nearly every 2D game on the system...why would that be, since according to you, we the user base don't want to play those games...

The DC has always been known for its strong 2D lineup, why else would a copy of Cannon Spike or Rival Schools fetch 10 times more than Sonic Adventure?
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Re: New 3D Racing 4x4 Jam For Sega Dreamcast

Post#30 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:33 pm

mazonemayu wrote:The DC has always been known for its strong 2D lineup, why else would a copy of Cannon Spike or Rival Schools fetch 10 times more than Sonic Adventure?


The last time I checked, both of those games were 3D. The gameplay might be in 2D, but they are rendered in 3D.

Also, I think the fact that Cannon Spike and Rival Schools, being pretty late releases in the DC lifetime, probably not moved too many units, while Sonic Adventure, a launch title, was the (supposedly) best selling game on the platform plays into the reason for the price difference.

And just to throw my own 2 cents, as neat it is to see new games come to the DC, I don't really see the value in buying 8 bit style games like Hermes for it, even if they are good games and they only cost 10€. I'd much rather spare the limited life of my DC laser and pay 5-10€ for such a game on Steam.

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