DualStick + CDZ Button DC Controls

[Roareye]

I'd be satisfied with the second stick emulating the ABXY buttons on DC at first, since most games use those for strafing and looking up/down.

Of course I'd prefer an actual second stick with hex edited games, but at this point I'm just confused as to why this obvious oversight hasn't been corrected when multiple controllers have been attempted.

[cloofoofoo]

Yes, but why not go in and hex edit the games for better controls? I thought that was the whole point of wanting dual analogs so people could hack the games to have a truly more modern layout scheme? Sure it would be more work in the end, but it would truly make the games way more comfortable to play. There is an awesome modern control layout mod somebody made for Quake 2 on PSX, and I enjoy playing that version of the game way more now with it able to use the modern FPS control scheme.

Because editing the games to support has nothing to do with controller manufacturer. I see why megavolt said it would require a mode button. What your asking would fall squarely on the generosity of the community.

[Roareye]

Yes, but why not go in and hex edit the games for better controls? I thought that was the whole point of wanting dual analogs so people could hack the games to have a truly more modern layout scheme? Sure it would be more work in the end, but it would truly make the games way more comfortable to play. There is an awesome modern control layout mod somebody made for Quake 2 on PSX, and I enjoy playing that version of the game way more now with it able to use the modern FPS control scheme.

Because editing the games to support has nothing to do with controller manufacturer. I see why megavolt said it would require a mode button. What your asking would fall squarely on the generosity of the community.

To be fair, we are a very generous community. One of the most generous I've ever seen. dubcity and megavolt85 have both been releasing trimmed down GDIs for the GDEmu crowd, megavolt85 and others have been converting Atomiswave titles, Shuouma and others have set up servers to enable us to play games online and continue to try and crack the coding needed to play the remaining games, we've had DreamPi, DreamNow, Dream Companion, site and leaderboard revivals with DreamPipe, revival of many PSX Bleemcast titles...

If there were a community that would happily dedicate a bit of time to patching games for secondary stick support, I have no doubt the DC community will be the ones to do so. A bit of hex editing isn't as complicated as several other challenges this community has overcome, and anyone manufacturing hardware for a console that has been officially dead for 20 years should be aware of the market it's releasing it's hardware to. TBH I can't imagine the 2D fighter community on DC is as big as the community looking for the second thumbstick, and yet they have a dedicated BrawlerDC controller and now another in the form of the six-button, single stick Retro-Bit controller. Retro-Bit are setting themselves up for a slight issue since that niche market has been covered for at least a year by the time they release their hardware.

Perhaps they could communicate with the community, send out an early-access prototype (closer to release) to someone the community trusts to get the hex editing done on at least a selection of titles prior to hardware launch? I'm not saying me, as I wouldn't know where to start, but perhaps someone who has shown dedication to the code side of things like megavolt85, or dubcity, or even someone like Rael from Senile Team (if they are interested and/or willing of course). This has to be one of the most industrious and willing communities out there, it really wouldn't take much effort at all to ask us to support them even prior to the official launch.

[Ragfish]

They're struggling hard to even release the thing as is. Having them add a second stick would result in the thing being delayed to 2040.

I personally don't think I'd ever use the second stick on a DC controller. It's not like adding a second stick would magically allow me to, for example, control the camera in Phantasy Star Online. Even with hex edits I don't see that level of stuff being possible. The only games I can think of that would really benefit from it would be shooters, and I'd much rather use a mouse for those anyway.

Retro Fighters' controller lacked this option too - which I understood was because they were focussing on 2D fighters and not any other genre (Might also explain why others have noted some sensitivity issues with the BrawlerDC thumbstick - specifically in regards to graffiti inputs on Jet Set/Grind Radio).

The retro fighters controller is actually not meant for fighting games at all, as they've stated in the past. The issues it has with sensitivity in games like Jet Grind Radio are due to the controller being crap, not due to it being unversatile.

[Roareye]

They're struggling hard to even release the thing as is. Having them add a second stick would result in the thing being delayed to 2040.

TBH if they are struggling to release a design that has existed for over 20 years, that would suggest bigger issues on their end than a second stick. I can't even fathom what's causing the delay outside of possible sync issues with the 2.4Ghz wireless tech and VMU technology. Outside of that there is literally no issues that could cause a delay.

I personally don't think I'd ever use the second stick on a DC controller. It's not like adding a second stick would magically allow me to, for example, control the camera in Phantasy Star Online. Even with hex edits I don't see that level of stuff being possible. The only games I can think of that would really benefit from it would be shooters, and I'd much rather use a mouse for those anyway.

Shooter are my main reason for wanting it. My computer desk is very narrow and used for my PC work, and in no way in an optimal place for gaming on my TV. I'd get neck cramp. There will be those who can't be bothered with the faff of pulling out a keyboard and mouse everytime you fancy a play on Quake - and even then I really want to fully enjoy Fur Fighters with a decent control scheme and that doesn't work with the keyboard and mouse combo. Controllers are a much more comfortable/versatile way to play if you don't have a desk between you and your main screen. And there are many games to come for online play - Outtrigger, Unreal, QuakeWorld (someone was building that on here last I heard), it'd be nice to be able to play these with a controller. It's great that you are happy using the keyboard & mouse every time you play, but it's not always an easy luxury for most of us.
I'm pretty certain once a decent dual stick controller was on the market, very few outside collectors would be jumping for single stick controllers in the future outside of collectors.

Retro Fighters' controller lacked this option too - which I understood was because they were focussing on 2D fighters and not any other genre (Might also explain why others have noted some sensitivity issues with the BrawlerDC thumbstick - specifically in regards to graffiti inputs on Jet Set/Grind Radio).

The retro fighters controller is actually not meant for fighting games at all, as they've stated in the past. The issues it has with sensitivity in games like Jet Grind Radio are due to the controller being crap, not due to it being unversatile.

Oh, considering they called it the StrikerDC and their previous controllers for N64 etc were all 2D Fighter specific, I'm surprised to hear they've said otherwise. Even their official page states "Take your gaming to the next level with digital shoulder buttons and added pressure sensitive triggers – perfect for fighting games." Though it does also mention playing on other games too.
Have you played on a StrikerDC to determine it is crap? I've not played one so I couldn't say for certain, just going by what others have stated.

[dubcity]

Anyways, they are fully updating the controller for DC with Saturn D-Pad and 6 face buttons, PS4 thumb stick as well as repositioned triggers.

they will have to implement a mode change by pressing hot buttons, otherwise their venture will fail

I agree with this.

mode function would change analog to digital and back.

adding mode function shouldn't be hard for them since they are creating the pcb. zero delay pcb for arcade sticks have mode function for a long time and they are fairly cheap.

wingman sd from brook does mode change also.

I'm more interested in if they will make new vmu with larger memory.

ip file in dreamcast games has switch for second analog.

[Roareye]

I'm more interested in if they will make new vmu with larger memory.

Ohh that would be awesome. Can the Dreamcast itself recognise a VMU with more than 200 blocks? If I remember correctly, the 8MB VMUs had switches to make them essentially 4 sets of 200 blocks in one physical card (And had no screen). Is it possible to up the internal memory of the VMUs and have the Dreamcast understand it?

ip file in dreamcast games has switch for second analog.

If I had those Twin Sticks, it would be interesting to essentially turn on the second analog switch in some IP files and test what they do. I'm guessing the second stick will do nothing unless something has already been pre-assigned? I also don't know how the IP files work at all. Opened one in Notepad and most of it was garbage lol

[Anthony817]

Because editing the games to support has nothing to do with controller manufacturer.

I never said it had anything to do with the manufactures. The maple protocol actually has support for this natively. Dreamcast can handle it as long as we have the controller manufacturer understand this going into it so we the community can take advantage of a built in feature set.

You can see what all inputs the Maple protocol supports here, and another analog is one of them.

Analog inputs.

Code: Select all

/* Raw controller condition structure */
typedef struct {
    uint16 buttons;         /* buttons bitfield */
    uint8 rtrig;            /* right trigger */
    uint8 ltrig;            /* left trigger */
    uint8 joyx;         /* joystick X */
    uint8 joyy;         /* joystick Y */
    uint8 joy2x;            /* second joystick X */
    uint8 joy2y;            /* second joystick Y */
} cont_cond_t;

And then the digital inputs.

Code: Select all

#define CONT_C          (1<<0)
#define CONT_B          (1<<1)
#define CONT_A          (1<<2)
#define CONT_START      (1<<3)
#define CONT_DPAD_UP        (1<<4)
#define CONT_DPAD_DOWN      (1<<5)
#define CONT_DPAD_LEFT      (1<<6)
#define CONT_DPAD_RIGHT     (1<<7)
#define CONT_Z          (1<<8)
#define CONT_Y          (1<<9)
#define CONT_X          (1<<10)
#define CONT_D          (1<<11)
#define CONT_DPAD2_UP       (1<<12)
#define CONT_DPAD2_DOWN     (1<<13)
#define CONT_DPAD2_LEFT     (1<<14)
#define CONT_DPAD2_RIGHT    (1<<15)

I see why megavolt said it would require a mode button. What your asking would fall squarely on the generosity of the community.

And that was exactly the plan I had the whole time. Why expect the controller manufactures to do that? We are a strong dedicated community capable of things such as this. If somebody like dubcity can go in and repack most GDI games for DC to be used on GDEMU and Dreamshell with smaller more optimized GDI's with proper full size box art, and others can hex edit games for widescreen code, why not expect the community to take this on as well? I never expected the manufactures to be the ones to implement this, been saying since at least 2015 if we had a proper dual analog controller natively on DC we could do this. Retro-Bit also has preset controller profiles you can select with key combos so most likely a presumed dual analog controller for DC produced by them would have same features already. So people content enough to stick with that can do so. People wanting more fine control over the layout can do the more involved method.

People update PSX games all the time for more modern controller layout, so no reason to expect this community can't do so as well. If I recall correctly people even do this on PS Vita with PSP games making better control layouts which use the second stick.

TBH if they are struggling to release a design that has existed for over 20 years, that would suggest bigger issues on their end than a second stick. I can't even fathom what's causing the delay outside of possible sync issues with the 2.4Ghz wireless tech and VMU technology. Outside of that there is literally no issues that could cause a delay.

On top of them dealing with Sega who is very particular in the approval process since it is hinging all on them approving each and every design, Covid on top of that really threw a wrench in their plans. After all, they still haven't released the dual analog wired Mega Drive/Genesis and Saturn controllers yet. My hunch is that they were waiting for the first release of Dreamcast controller to get finalized, then move back to the dual analog designs once they got the basic wired and wireless versions for each system. Don't forget in addition to them doing original controller connection for original systems, they do USB and Bluetooth as well as RF controllers.

[Roel]

I'm more interested in if they will make new vmu with larger memory.

Ohh that would be awesome. Can the Dreamcast itself recognise a VMU with more than 200 blocks? If I remember correctly, the 8MB VMUs had switches to make them essentially 4 sets of 200 blocks in one physical card (And had no screen). Is it possible to up the internal memory of the VMUs and have the Dreamcast understand it?

Short answer:
Sadly not.

Long answer:
A VMU actually has 256 blocks, but some are used for the file system (directory listing, file allocation table, etc). That leaves 200 blocks available for files.

The default formatting is not very efficient though. Reformatting the VMU can increase storage capacity by about 20% (IIRC), but it won't work for all games. Some games won't be able to access the reformatted VMU at all.

You cannot have more than 256 blocks, because the file system can only access blocks numbered 0 to 255. That's why switching between multiple "banks", like in the existing extra large VMUs, is the only solution.

[Roareye]

I'm more interested in if they will make new vmu with larger memory.

Ohh that would be awesome. Can the Dreamcast itself recognise a VMU with more than 200 blocks? If I remember correctly, the 8MB VMUs had switches to make them essentially 4 sets of 200 blocks in one physical card (And had no screen). Is it possible to up the internal memory of the VMUs and have the Dreamcast understand it?

Short answer:
Sadly not.

Long answer:
A VMU actually has 256 blocks, but some are used for the file system (directory listing, file allocation table, etc). That leaves 200 blocks available for files.

The default formatting is not very efficient though. Reformatting the VMU can increase storage capacity by about 20% (IIRC), but it won't work for all games. Some games won't be able to access the reformatted VMU at all.

You cannot have more than 256 blocks, because the file system can only access blocks numbered 0 to 255. That's why switching between multiple "banks", like in the existing extra large VMUs, is the only solution.

Thanks, I thought that was the case.

I suppose an update to the 8MB memory card, with multiple banks (more than 4) would be awesome to reduce VMU card swapping. Though this may take an interface over the regular VMU interface etc for naming banks. It's all above my knowledge.

Either way the VMU works as is. For me, the DC replacement controllers being sold do not. We are in dire need of a dual stick controller.