DualStick + CDZ Button DC Controls

[Motoracer5]

Sorry I misunderstood your first post. I thought you meant that Shenmue was running slower than usual. A bit of slowdown was pretty standard in pre-Xbox360 consoles. So long as your changes didn't slow down the game more than usual, that's cool.

My Wingman got delayed in the post. Amazon are telling me it'll be with me tomorrow now, which is a bit frustrating.

I could make it slow down while moving the camera and walking in scenarios that normally held good framerate. Just making it do more calculations than the game designers intended on I guess. Night time at the Workers Pier in Shenmue 2 I could make it a full slide show using the camera and walking, but the Dreamcast struggles with that area as it is.

Hopefully your adapter doesn't get delayed anymore, I'm curious to hear what you make of it!

Do you have an overclocked Dreamcast? If not, you should consider it. Makes some games actually play well that otherwise run awful. For a few games I would definitely rank that more important than a modern input method

[Roareye]

Wait, why is System Shock 2 listed? It was actually discovered on a devkit, but it was not more than like 10% completed. I wouldn't even really list that since not much is even playable. I think somebody hacked it to go through more of the first level, but there weren't any enemies.

I have never played it, saw it on a list. I didn't know how incomplete it was, I'll remove it

Do you have an overclocked Dreamcast? If not, you should consider it. Makes some games actually play well that otherwise run awful. For a few games I would definitely rank that more important than a modern input method.

No I don't. I don't have the skill to do it (nor the money and resources to find someone who can). There aren't many games I feel run "awful" on DC, and a bit of slowdown doesn't usually bother me as much as other people. There are PC gamers who bang on about 144hz, 100hz, a consistent 60fps etc. I grew up in PAL territories, 60fps didn't exist in gaming here until relatively recently.

A modern input method is the most accessible improvement that can be achieved as the DC supports it natively and it doesn't require console modification. I can definitely see the benefit of an overclocking mod, and it may be something I come to in time. Perhaps you could start a topic on overclocking, showing examples of games you feel benefit from the mod the most (You mentioned the Workers Pier in Shenmue II for a start) - you could even record footage to show that the DC is capable of rendering these scenes far better with the mod in place too.

[Motoracer5]

No I don't. I don't have the skill to do it (nor the money and resources to find someone who can). There aren't many games I feel run "awful" on DC, and a bit of slowdown doesn't usually bother me as much as other people. There are PC gamers who bang on about 144hz, 100hz, a consistent 60fps etc. I grew up in PAL territories, 60fps didn't exist in gaming here until relatively recently.

A modern input method is the most accessible improvement that can be achieved as the DC supports it natively and it doesn't require console modification. I can definitely see the benefit of an overclocking mod, and it may be something I come to in time. Perhaps you could start a topic on overclocking, showing examples of games you feel benefit from the mod the most (You mentioned the Workers Pier in Shenmue II for a start) - you could even record footage to show that the DC is capable of rendering these scenes far better with the mod in place too.

Wacky Races, Ghost Blade, Revolt, Unreal Tournament are a few. NeoGeo and SNES emulation benefit quite a bit. Also, most any game that has 4 player split screen. Some games like Record of the Lodoss War (may have spelled that wrong) have MASSIVE slideshow level slowdown in a few big battles, but I don't mind as it makes the enemies easier to manage in those situations But a game like Wacky Races is hardly enjoyable without overclocking.

I believe Anthony817 had posted videos a long time ago of Shenmue 2 on a overclocked system vs stock, and that was hardly the worst offender.

As far as controllers go, if you happen to have any 8bitdo they work with the Wingman SD. M30 is probably my favorite, I MAY even prefer it over the model 2 Saturn pad. Played Shenmue and Outrigger with a Xbox Series X controller last night, felt very natural. You can also access the VMU storage with a PC. I backed up all my VMU data (9 VMU worth!) with this.

[Roareye]

As far as controllers go, if you happen to have any 8bitdo they work with the Wingman SD. M30 is probably my favorite, I MAY even prefer it over the model 2 Saturn pad. Played Shenmue and Outrigger with a Xbox Series X controller last night, felt very natural. You can also access the VMU storage with a PC. I backed up all my VMU data (9 VMU worth!) with this.

I was planning to use my spare Xbox One controller, but it's excellent that the Wingman SD is so versatile across controllers. I can't use my Mega Drive and Saturn wireless pads though as they're 2.4Ghz wireless, but I doubt I'd have done so anyway. I'm mostly using the Wingman to test different control schemes, being able to sit on my sofa to play games (I'd need about 4-5metre long cables to play from my sofa, and the controller cord extenders are very unstable) and to potentially test mods of the Wingman SD firmware to unlock the rest of the MAPLE controls.

Eventually being able to use a custom made controller that gives all the benefits of the Wingman SD, additional controls of the extended MAPLE controls and still have the VMU slots available for the games that lean heavily on VMUs and access to the DC microphone (and Vibration Pak if that isn't built into the controller) would be the best result. But to get to that end point, we will need megavolt85's MAPLE adapter to be easily accessible or the Wingman's firmware to be modified (either officially or unofficially, they've not responded to my email yet) to give the same benefits - get it out there that these games have expanded controls and there is a market for a custom controller that gets around the Wingman.

But that's all pie in the sky at the moment, and we are at very early days. Wingman SD doesn't accept MAPLE inputs not already on the traditional DC controller, megavolt85's MAPLE adapter is a home-build requiring technical skills many (myself very much included) don't have, and only 1 game is guaranteed to accept all the expanded controls at the moment (Quake III Arena) - not yet the fertile ground for a controller manufacturer to pick up the baton and run with it.

What other games do you guys think could do with enhanced control schemes? This doesn't just have to be games needing a second stick, it could be games where there aren't enough buttons on the traditional controller (Where the additional CDZ buttons would help reduce control complexity). I tested several today but by no means have I gone through the entire catalogue (And some genres are outside of my knowledge to know how to play, like most sports games).

[Anthony817]

Wacky Races, Ghost Blade, Revolt, Unreal Tournament are a few. NeoGeo and SNES emulation benefit quite a bit. Also, most any game that has 4 player split screen. Some games like Record of the Lodoss War (may have spelled that wrong) have MASSIVE slideshow level slowdown in a few big battles, but I don't mind as it makes the enemies easier to manage in those situations But a game like Wacky Races is hardly enjoyable without overclocking.

I believe Anthony817 had posted videos a long time ago of Shenmue 2 on a overclocked system vs stock, and that was hardly the worst offender.

Yup, those games do become much smoother for me when OC mode is enabled on mine. Even games like Soldier of Fortune, and Vanishing Point and even Test Drive 6 which isn't particularly a graphically intense game itself seems to run much smoother. I did tests where I would play a certain level and test it in normal 200mhz and then in 240mhz speed overclock and it ran all titles smoother in spots that had issues.

What other games do you guys think could do with enhanced control schemes? This doesn't just have to be games needing a second stick, it could be games where there aren't enough buttons on the traditional controller (Where the additional CDZ buttons would help reduce control complexity). I tested several today but by no means have I gone through the entire catalogue (And some genres are outside of my knowledge to know how to play, like most sports games).

I can't think of any off the top of my head but I am sure some could be given more favorable button layout. I just mostly wanted games where we could use a second stick for even camera movement like in platformers or other games.

[Motoracer5]

I was planning to use my spare Xbox One controller, but it's excellent that the Wingman SD is so versatile across controllers. I can't use my Mega Drive and Saturn wireless pads though as they're 2.4Ghz wireless, but I doubt I'd have done so anyway. I'm mostly using the Wingman to test different control schemes, being able to sit on my sofa to play games (I'd need about 4-5metre long cables to play from my sofa, and the controller cord extenders are very unstable) and to potentially test mods of the Wingman SD firmware to unlock the rest of the MAPLE controls.

Eventually being able to use a custom made controller that gives all the benefits of the Wingman SD, additional controls of the extended MAPLE controls and still have the VMU slots available for the games that lean heavily on VMUs and access to the DC microphone (and Vibration Pak if that isn't built into the controller) would be the best result. But to get to that end point, we will need megavolt85's MAPLE adapter to be easily accessible or the Wingman's firmware to be modified (either officially or unofficially, they've not responded to my email yet) to give the same benefits - get it out there that these games have expanded controls and there is a market for a custom controller that gets around the Wingman.

But that's all pie in the sky at the moment, and we are at very early days. Wingman SD doesn't accept MAPLE inputs not already on the traditional DC controller, megavolt85's MAPLE adapter is a home-build requiring technical skills many (myself very much included) don't have, and only 1 game is guaranteed to accept all the expanded controls at the moment (Quake III Arena) - not yet the fertile ground for a controller manufacturer to pick up the baton and run with it.

What other games do you guys think could do with enhanced control schemes? This doesn't just have to be games needing a second stick, it could be games where there aren't enough buttons on the traditional controller (Where the additional CDZ buttons would help reduce control complexity). I tested several today but by no means have I gone through the entire catalogue (And some genres are outside of my knowledge to know how to play, like most sports games).

It seems like there are already controller alternatives for the few games that benefit. Fighters and shmups are probably the most popular games on the system now, and there are no shortage of input options for them

[Roel]

and only 1 game is guaranteed to accept all the expanded controls at the moment (Quake III Arena)

I'd be happy to support all possible inputs in Intrepid Izzy. But since I don't have any such hardware, I won't be able to test if my code is actually correct.

[Roareye]

Okay. I've had a response from Brook but it seems they didn't understand my first email. I stated that the Dreamcast can recognise a second stick and included the C language code that Anthony posted here, but this was their response;

Hi Rory,

Thanks for writing , we don’t understand what you mean “It would be far better if the second stick used Dreamcast's second stick function,”

The Dreamcast controller only left stick. If you know other Dreamcast controller , please show us , thanks

Albert Chiang

Obviously I can't show them an actual different twin stick controller. They also may not be native English speakers, and I have a tendency to ramble. What would be the simplest way of telling them to use the DC's second stick and CDZ buttons?

::EDIT:: Here's a possible reply, but I haven't sent it yet. I want you guys to help me with any mistakes, better ways of saying things etc so the response I send is crystal clear.

Hi Albert,
Thank you for your reply, allow me to explain. This may make more sense to one of your programmers.

Ignore the original Dreamcast controller, as it only makes use of a small amount of the Dreamcast's available controls. I'm referring to the controls available on the MAPLE control chip inside the Dreamcast console itself. The original Dreamcast controller has the following setup;
Left Stick, Left D-Pad, ABXY Buttons, Left and Right Triggers, START.
However the Dreamcast hardware itself can recognise the following controls;
Left Stick, Right Stick, Left D-Pad, Right D-Pad, ABCDXYZ buttons, Left and Right Triggers, START.

As you can see, there is a right stick, right d-pad and C, D and Z buttons that the original Dreamcast controller does not use. There was a planned two-stick Dreamcast controller, but it never came out due to the short life of the console. The missing controls are used by other controllers, such as the Fishing Rod, Twin Sticks and Mad Catz PantherDC controllers.

What the Dreamcast community is asking for is a mode for the Wingman that allows us to access these controls. We have already found that Quake III Arena can use all of them, we just need a controller that can use them too. The Dreamcast community is also able to modify the controls of games to use the second stick and CDZ buttons, but we need a controller to use them on. The Wingman SD is the perfect device to allow us to do that. The firmware could allow us to map an Xbox One's right stick to the right stick functions of the Dreamcast, with the Left and Right Bumpers serving as C and Z. The Share/Screenshot button could be made the D button too, giving us full modern controls on the Dreamcast.

The Dreamcast console is able to do this, the original controller is not. The Wingman SD would be the first adapter on the market to unlock the missing controls of the Dreamcast, and would be a unique selling point for your product.

Rory J and the DC Community.

[Motoracer5]

"The Dreamcast community is also able to modify the controls of games to use the second stick and CDZ buttons"

That part has not happened, no one with the ability has mentioned how possible it is

[Motoracer5]

I'd be happy to support all possible inputs in Intrepid Izzy. But since I don't have any such hardware, I won't be able to test if my code is actually correct.

I could loan you a Brook DS4 to dreamcast adapter. Works with a 8bitdo M30 wired as well, but it dosen't support Xbox or Switch pads. Should be fine for letting you see where code needs to be changed to let the Team Senile games work with the Brook adapter. PM me if you are interested